Tribunal Motion: Laurea ex Bonisagus - The Lords Prayer

There have been a number of instances of infernal corruption within the Order.

To help minimise this and to provide a baseline of proof that one is not a demon, I propose that all newly Gauntleted Magi must learn and recite the Lords Prayer in Latin as part of their Gauntlet. Something which demons are generally incapable of doing. This would also prove basic proficiency in Latin and help foster good moral character.


Laurea ex Bonisagus of Whitby

Aligning the Order somewhat with harmony is an interesting decision, but not one which I should be very involved in.

But still, how often has this been an issue? Has there been instances of demons being gauntleted? I've not heard of any. This seems unnecessary to me.

-Marble ex Criamon

As we have not rigourously tested anybody, how would we know? We can not detect that which we do not check for.

One of my Sodalis Ruth ex Miscelania has spent many years purging infernal ghosts from the Yorkshire countryside that rose as a result of the ravages of William the Conquerer. So they are a very real threat and presence. We say prayers before every evening meal to ensure that none of us, particularly vulnerable apprentices, are possessed. Whilst I am sure that enforcing such a regular schedule of prayer would be impossible to enforce, I feel that we should screen people who have been without the protection of Parma all their life before teaching them such secrets, lest hidden demons learn of the secrets of our most potent protection.

Laurea ex Bonisagus of Whitby

I appreciate your concern, I am however concerned that this approach is going to prove quite significantly flawed.

The Lord's Prayer. I assume you refer to the Roman Catholic prayer. However, we have a significant amount of sodales of the greek confession. I, myself, have only converted to Catholicism decades after gauntlet.

This can probably be circumvented, but we have both Saracen and Jewish sodales, not to mention the Mercurian Mages or members of Houses Merenita and Ex Misc, who may well follow pagan faiths that are not even associated with the Dominion and may well object to this demand. In fact, I am surprised they haven't spoken up yet.

These concerns could just as easily be addressed by subjecting apprentices to Demons Eternal Oblivion.

- Zacharias ex Tremere

Thank you for your counterpoints Zacharias,

Whilst Demon's Eternal Oblivion is a very useful spell, it falls short in several respects.
As my Sodales continues to inform me, Hermetic Magic is excessively flawed when dealing with demons. (Much of the North of England is over-run by infernal ghosts, courtesy of William the conqueror's killings during in the Harrying of the North.)
Whilst it is common belief that Demon's Eternal Oblivion is sufficient to identify demonic taint, this is an outright untruth. It will only detect demons themselves, not those who are possessed.
A separate spell is required to purge possession, usually known as Exorcise the Filthy Spirit. But due to limits on Hermetic magic, if you fail to overcome a demon's natural resistance to such spells, you may be completely unaware of your own failure. Only Faith in God can protect us from the Infernal.

As for those of other faiths, whilst the Order is predominantly Christian, I am certain that those of other Faiths of the Book have appropriate prayers or observances that they could recite in place of the Lord's Prayer. Those who do not have faith in God should have no problem with simply reciting the words of the Lords Prayer, even if they lack faith in them.

Laurea ex Bonisagus of Whitby

And those that have a slumbering possession of a demon would certainly be incapable of reciting the prayer?

I concede that it may take a different spell. I know this spell so does my sodales Dragomilova filia Toxophilus, a prolific Excorcist as would, I believe, Abelard of Bonisagus, so the capabilities are present.

I am concerned about the catholicistic focus this will give the order.

But I will not oppose this suggestion of yours, if you yourself and all prominently christian magi, including the holy magi, publicly perform the equivalent of the Lords prayer for all religions that are represented in the order. Since you can do these proclamations without faith, there should be no reason to object, right?

Dear Zacharias ex Tremere

I would argue that this is a Christian Order arising from Christian Rome. However if we indeed have Mosolem or Jewish members in the Tribunal, then I would invite them to submit what prayer they feel would be appropriate and as long as the prayer was in praise of God then I see no reason why we should not be able to speak to his Glory in Arabic rather than Latin. Although the Order does not generally require the learning of the Jewish languages, so such prayers may need to be translated in Latin if that would be acceptable.

However only the Faiths of the Dominion are true and have power over demons. To require pagan adulation defeats the entire point of the exercise.

Laurea ex Bonisagus of Whitby

I understand that only our faiths have direct effects against the infernal.

I am asking you to prove that it is an acceptable burden to be forced to participate in a faith that isn't your own.

- Zacharias ex Tremere

Dear Zacharias ex Tremere

We as Magi know for a fact that there is a Dominion, which is good and moral and opposed to the Infernal. We can discern its servants (Angels) and its traces (Dominion Auras).

We also know that only a select number of Monotheistic Faiths, first amongst them Christianity, draws upon and is supported by the Dominion.

Faiths that are not directed to one of the faces of the Monotheistic God of Abraham are invariably either Faeries, Magical or Infernal beings.

Would you say that a mundane madman has equal right to speak at our Tribunal as a respected Magi of the Order? Why then would you accept faith in Faeries as equal to the faith in the One True Loving and Living God? Pagan faiths should not require nor be granted accommodation.

Or is this a Tytalus-like exercise in argument for its own sake?

Laurea ex Bonisagus of Whitby

Quite the contrary. My intention was to unveil this argument as what it truly is. A badly hidden attempt at control.

You are walking a perilous road. One that House Tremere remembers well.

- Zacharias ex Tremere

You are attempting to undermine me ad hominem by inferring that I seek control without answered the central question.

How do you intend to protect Tribunal from demonic infiltration, which we have already experienced, without the aid of God? Magic alone is inherently insufficient.

Laurea ex Bonisagus of Whitby

I challenge this idea that magic is not sufficient defense against the infernal.

We have uncovered and removed infernal infiltration before, without requiring the aid of the divine. Just because it is *also* effective doesn't mean it is required.

Specifically because your proposal would do nothing to protect against the infiltration that did occur.

Hermetic Magic is effective at destroying the Infernal when it is detected, I do not disagree.

However the Limit of the Infernal is a known and fundamental flaw in Hermetic Theory that prevents effective detection of demons and their influence. This limit appears to be shared by all known Hedge Traditions which are not Dominion aligned.

Only Holy Magic, prayer and faith can reliably detect demonic activity.

Once demons are detected I fully agree that magic is a powerful and effective tool for destroying them, but the limits of magic, until broken are a hinderance to our efforts to root out their influence.

Laurea ex Bonisagus of Whitby

This does not change the fact that your proposal would be utterly worthless against the previous attempts at infiltration and only succeed in alienating a not insignificant number of magi. Which let's me question either your intentions or your mental faculties. Which is it?

I certainly won't be muttering some words to your god. It's your faith not mine. If your god is the one true god then why has it condemned countless generations of pagans? Faerie gods certainly do arise from believe in the old ways but such faeries also arise from stories of demons and dragons. Faeries merely reflect the belief of the time.

Aisling ex Merinita

There are too many unknowns regarding the previous infiltration to accurately say if these measures would have helped.
How was Bridgenorth corrupted originally? How far back did it go?
But certainly it was due in part to a lack of vigilance and faith.

What new measures have been put in place to prevent a repeat of that incident?
Certainly using Demons Eternal Oblivion would help prevent literally demons showing up, but I see no safeguards against demonically possessed people so far being admitted into the Order.

Laurea ex Bonisagus.

(Marble ex Criamon speaking)
After some thought, I think that this discussion is pointless.
It's odd how those who follow the Dominion draw such a harsh distinction between Angels and Demons. They're the same. God and the Devil follow a similar rule, surely.

You so eagerly praise those corrupted by God into the Order, but condemn those corrupted by the Devil despite being one of them — just not at this point in the cycle.
Why are you fretting so much over a bowl of porridge and a cup of beer? You consume both just as eagerly.

-Marble